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Wagers like the Come bet are where craps gained its reputation for complexity. When backing the Come bet, you're simply playing an on demand Pass Line, similar to the way Place bets work. In other words, at any point after the come out roll, you can place a Come bet to create your own personal Pass Line bet. Here's how it works. Bet after the bet has been moved to a number. If you look at the 'Craps payout odds' chart, you will see that you have to wager more to get less on the don't-pass bets. For example, you must bet $2 to win $1 on the don't pass.
True Odds: These are the calculated odds that you will win or lose based on the bet you make. The amount of money you place doesn't figure into the odds, but it does figure into the Craps payout. Craps Payout: For a 1/1 payout, if you bet $5 and win, you only get $5 on top of the $5 you bet. Once a point is made on the first roll or a come point on a succeeding roll, you may take the odds and win if the points are made before a seven. Payoffs are: two-to-one on four and ten, three-to-two on five and nine, six-to-five on six and eight. 'Don't Pass' or 'Don't Come' bets are in reverse; you must lay the odds in order to win.
OK, yeah, but what happens to the HE when you hit the field then *take down* the hardway, and give it to me *per roll* like that.
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Any Hardway bet per roll has an EV = -2.7778% (-1/36), as does a Field bet with a triple-pay 12. So, if you take the Hardway bet down, the EV doesn't change; you just have the Field by itself.
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
It may be true that I am just showing how dense I am. If so, further examples of bet combination HE isn't going to clear it up for me. A complete need to show how this isn't as muddled thinking as 'betting systems that win' bet combinations seems to exist.
You may have missed some of the threads.
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
You may have missed some of the threads.
I probably have; I've been away for a while, but your point is well taken. I also think that the terms 'per bet resolved' and 'per decision' don't always make for a clear distinction from 'per roll', as one can speak of 'per roll losses per bet resolved' and think of multi-roll bets on box numbers or hardways against the seven being resolved 'per roll' as push 'decisions' whenever the box number (win) or seven (loss) doesn't roll.
When the field pays triple (the ONLY time you should EVER bet the field if you do bet it at all) the edge is 2.78% per roll.
The same as the hardways here in America.
No difference.
I corrected the Wizard about his edge per roll on the hardways in his FAQ. I don't know if he has updated it.
Please don't be confused when it comes to comparisons of one bet to another. IMO, *ALWAYS* use the edge per roll AND DONE
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
For the math inclined on this thread (especially those who are new to the forum) you have to realize that most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
If you want to compare one bet to another bet, the 'per roll' is the only way to do it.
Perhaps I take too many cues from the Wizard, but he does evidently think it is valid to look at HE per roll. I can see that it should be for players who constantly pick up their bets and make different bets.
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
It can be valid or not, depending on the player; not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
In the context of bet combinations and HE, it seems to me that smoke and mirrors are around the corner; when bet per roll is thrown in when the OP did not have that, or vice-versa, I really get suspicious.
Most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
Most people? The game is the numbers. And I never
not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
Right. I think of the Place-8 as an eleven-sided die, with five faces bearing an 8 and six faces bearing a 7. One throw, and done. Same math. I never take bets down per roll. It annoys dealers. But, when you combine multi-roll with one-roll, e.g. on the Iron Cross or Buffalo, the model changes somewhat. You need to think about 36 rolls at a time. For per-roll, box bets have to be 'resolved' somehow on every roll, to put them on equal ground with ORBs.
The reason why its better to leave them working is because a seven can roll on any throw including the come out roll. the seven isnt more probable on the come out roll just because its the come out roll. The seven can roll at any time. If the seven doesnt roll however and you hit a number you get paid the full amount of your odds bet instead of just the flat bets which always work when going through the come. some may say......' you can lose all your bets on one roll if you turn them on'. yea but you can lose them all in one roll on the next throw as well. since the odds are free bets with no house edge you will be giving up a bet with no edge in exchange for one with a house edge of 1.41 instead.
Craps Don't Come Odds Payout
There is something mystical/mysterious about the come out. For example, it seems to me that I see more 7s in succession on the come out than any other time. Well, and in many cases the 11, and craps numbers. When I'm only a few $$ above going broke, I'll be damned if I don't see more craps numbers successively than any other time. Probably just a matter of perception. But, there's a lot of things about craps that defy the math.- Page 4 of 13
Let me begin by apologizing to our beginner craps players. I pride myself on being a good teacher, but I overlooked the fact the I have not yet written an article dedicated to the free odds bet. I took it for granted that everyone understood what is mathematically the best bet in the game.
However, recently, I started seeing very basic questions about the free odds bet pop up on the RoadGambler YouTube channel.
So let's have a simple discussion about the free odds bet.
For purposes of simplicity, I am only going to discuss free odds on the light side, aka the pass and come side. For the dark side of free odds, see this: https://roadgambler.com/casino/darkside/
Also, the free odds are simply referred to as ‘odds'; so going forward, I will use the term ‘odds' in lieu of ‘free odds.
WHAT ARE THE FREE ODDS BET?
The odds bet is a bet that can only be made once the player has bet on the pass line or come bet.
It's mathematically the best bet on the table because the odds pay true odds. That means that, unlike almost every other bet in the casino, the house has no advantage.
Odds bets are usually capped. At most Las Vegas strip properties, the odds bet is capped at a maximum of 3x, 4x, and 5x.
Craps Come Bet Payouts
For example, here is a table limit sign at a Las Vegas Strip casino.
Notice that the minimum bet on this table is $15. 3x, 4x, and 5x means that: if the point is 4 or 10, then the maximum odds are 3 times the pass line bet; if the point is 5 or 9, then the maximum odds are 4 times the pass line bet; and if the point is 6 or 8, the maximum odds allowed are 5 times the pass line.
Let's say that you make a $15 pass line bet. That means that in the above picture since the point is 8 (as marked by the white puck), you can bet $75 worth of odds.
Some casinos will allow more free odds. Notice the sign that says 100x. That means if you bet $5, you can bet up to $500 worth of odds.
WIN-LOSS CONDITIONS OF THE ODDS BET
The odds bet will win if the point assigned to that odds bet rolls before the 7 rolls.
OK, yeah, but what happens to the HE when you hit the field then *take down* the hardway, and give it to me *per roll* like that.
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Any Hardway bet per roll has an EV = -2.7778% (-1/36), as does a Field bet with a triple-pay 12. So, if you take the Hardway bet down, the EV doesn't change; you just have the Field by itself.
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
It may be true that I am just showing how dense I am. If so, further examples of bet combination HE isn't going to clear it up for me. A complete need to show how this isn't as muddled thinking as 'betting systems that win' bet combinations seems to exist.
You may have missed some of the threads.
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
You may have missed some of the threads.
I probably have; I've been away for a while, but your point is well taken. I also think that the terms 'per bet resolved' and 'per decision' don't always make for a clear distinction from 'per roll', as one can speak of 'per roll losses per bet resolved' and think of multi-roll bets on box numbers or hardways against the seven being resolved 'per roll' as push 'decisions' whenever the box number (win) or seven (loss) doesn't roll.
When the field pays triple (the ONLY time you should EVER bet the field if you do bet it at all) the edge is 2.78% per roll.
The same as the hardways here in America.
No difference.
I corrected the Wizard about his edge per roll on the hardways in his FAQ. I don't know if he has updated it.
Please don't be confused when it comes to comparisons of one bet to another. IMO, *ALWAYS* use the edge per roll AND DONE
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
For the math inclined on this thread (especially those who are new to the forum) you have to realize that most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
If you want to compare one bet to another bet, the 'per roll' is the only way to do it.
Perhaps I take too many cues from the Wizard, but he does evidently think it is valid to look at HE per roll. I can see that it should be for players who constantly pick up their bets and make different bets.
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
It can be valid or not, depending on the player; not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
In the context of bet combinations and HE, it seems to me that smoke and mirrors are around the corner; when bet per roll is thrown in when the OP did not have that, or vice-versa, I really get suspicious.
Most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
Most people? The game is the numbers. And I never (and I repeat, never) invoke combinatorics when dealing with craps! Yahtzee, maybe, but never craps! And, of course, eight-card poker.
not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
Right. I think of the Place-8 as an eleven-sided die, with five faces bearing an 8 and six faces bearing a 7. One throw, and done. Same math. I never take bets down per roll. It annoys dealers. But, when you combine multi-roll with one-roll, e.g. on the Iron Cross or Buffalo, the model changes somewhat. You need to think about 36 rolls at a time. For per-roll, box bets have to be 'resolved' somehow on every roll, to put them on equal ground with ORBs.
The reason why its better to leave them working is because a seven can roll on any throw including the come out roll. the seven isnt more probable on the come out roll just because its the come out roll. The seven can roll at any time. If the seven doesnt roll however and you hit a number you get paid the full amount of your odds bet instead of just the flat bets which always work when going through the come. some may say......' you can lose all your bets on one roll if you turn them on'. yea but you can lose them all in one roll on the next throw as well. since the odds are free bets with no house edge you will be giving up a bet with no edge in exchange for one with a house edge of 1.41 instead.
Craps Don't Come Odds Payout
There is something mystical/mysterious about the come out. For example, it seems to me that I see more 7s in succession on the come out than any other time. Well, and in many cases the 11, and craps numbers. When I'm only a few $$ above going broke, I'll be damned if I don't see more craps numbers successively than any other time. Probably just a matter of perception. But, there's a lot of things about craps that defy the math.- Page 4 of 13
Let me begin by apologizing to our beginner craps players. I pride myself on being a good teacher, but I overlooked the fact the I have not yet written an article dedicated to the free odds bet. I took it for granted that everyone understood what is mathematically the best bet in the game.
However, recently, I started seeing very basic questions about the free odds bet pop up on the RoadGambler YouTube channel.
So let's have a simple discussion about the free odds bet.
For purposes of simplicity, I am only going to discuss free odds on the light side, aka the pass and come side. For the dark side of free odds, see this: https://roadgambler.com/casino/darkside/
Also, the free odds are simply referred to as ‘odds'; so going forward, I will use the term ‘odds' in lieu of ‘free odds.
WHAT ARE THE FREE ODDS BET?
The odds bet is a bet that can only be made once the player has bet on the pass line or come bet.
It's mathematically the best bet on the table because the odds pay true odds. That means that, unlike almost every other bet in the casino, the house has no advantage.
Odds bets are usually capped. At most Las Vegas strip properties, the odds bet is capped at a maximum of 3x, 4x, and 5x.
Craps Come Bet Payouts
For example, here is a table limit sign at a Las Vegas Strip casino.
Notice that the minimum bet on this table is $15. 3x, 4x, and 5x means that: if the point is 4 or 10, then the maximum odds are 3 times the pass line bet; if the point is 5 or 9, then the maximum odds are 4 times the pass line bet; and if the point is 6 or 8, the maximum odds allowed are 5 times the pass line.
Let's say that you make a $15 pass line bet. That means that in the above picture since the point is 8 (as marked by the white puck), you can bet $75 worth of odds.
Some casinos will allow more free odds. Notice the sign that says 100x. That means if you bet $5, you can bet up to $500 worth of odds.
WIN-LOSS CONDITIONS OF THE ODDS BET
The odds bet will win if the point assigned to that odds bet rolls before the 7 rolls.
For example, if the point is 8, and the 8 rolls before the 7 rolls, then the odds bet will win. If the 7 rolls before the 8 rolls, then the odds bet will lose.
Odds bets can also be wagered on Come bets after the Come bet point has been established. Be warned that typically if the bettor has a live come bet with odds, and the pass line has just won, then the next roll will be a come out roll for the pass line. In that case, the odds bet attached to the come bet will not be working unless the bettor declares the odds to be working.
HOW TO IDENTIFY AND MAKE THE ODDS BET
In the picture below, the two bets that are behind the pass line bet are the odds bet. To make the odds bet, you just position your chips in the area behind your pass line bet, AFTER THE POINT HAS ROLLED.
If you are playing online, the odds bet is made by dragging chips to the area behind your pass line bet, like this…
PAYOUT ON ODDS BET
The most important thing to know about the odds bet is the payout.
The following are the payouts for each point…
Point is 4 or 10
- Odds will pay 2-1.
- For example, if you bet $10 on the odds, you will be paid $20
Point is 5 or 9
Craps Come Bet Odds Payout
- Odds will pay 3-2.
- For example, if you bet $10 on the odds, you will be paid $15.
- When betting odds on the 5 or 9, always make sure that you bet in even dollar increments. For example, if you bet $5, you will be penalized. True odds payout would be $7.50, but since most casinos do not have 50 cent chips, the casino will round down and pay $7.
Point is 6 or 8
Craps Come Bet Payout
- Odds will pay 6-5.
- For example, if you bet $10 on the odds, you will be paid $12.
- Always bet in $5 increments, or else you will be penalized. The casino will round down from the true odds payout.
FINAL ADVICE
When in doubt about how much to bet, follow this one simple rule about how much to bet on free odds: Bet in $10 increments.
If you bet in $10 increments, you will always have the correct odds bet. Make sure that the $10 increment does not go over the maximum odds allowed.
Play responsibly and enjoy!
Posted in: Casino, Craps, Gambling